Make AI adoption a strategic, ROI-focused and sustainable transformation, says HPE

The next BriefingsDirect expert interview explores best practices for deploying artificial intelligence (AI) with a focus on sustainability and strategic business benefits.

As AI rises as an imperative that impacts companies at nearly all levels, proper concern for efficiency around energy use and resources management has emerged as a key ingredient of success -- or failure.

It’s becoming increasingly evident that AI deployments will demand vast resources -- energy, water, skills, and upgraded or wholly new data center and electrical grid infrastructures.

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Join us to learn why factoring the full and long-term benefits — accurately weighed against the actual costs — is essential to assuring the desired business outcomes from AI implementations. Only by calculating the true and total expected costs in the fullest sense can businesses predict the proper fit-for-purpose use for large deployments of AI systems.

Here to share the latest findings and best planning practices for sustainable AI is John Frey, Director and Chief Technologist of Sustainable Transformation at Hewlett Packard Enterprise (HPE). The discussion is moderated by Dana Gardner, Principal Analyst at Interarbor Solutions.

Here are some excerpts:

Gardner: It’s good to have you back, John. AI capabilities have moved outside the traditional boundaries of technology, data science, and analytics. AI has become a rapidly growing imperative for business leaders -- and it’s impacting the daily life of more and more workers. Generative AI, and more generally large language models, for example, are now widely sought for broad and varied uses.

While energy efficiency has long been sought for general IT and high-performance computing (HPC), AI appears to dramatically up the game on the need to factor and manage the required resources.

John, how much of sea change is the impact of AI having on all that’s needed to support these complex systems?

AI impact adds up everywhere

Frey

Frey: Well, AI certainly is an additional load on resources. AI training, for example, is power-intensive. AI inferencing acts similarly, and obviously is used again and again and again if users use the tools as designed for a long period of time.

It remains to be seen how much and how quickly, but there’s a lot of research out there that suggests that AI use is going to rapidly grow in terms of overall technology demand.

Gardner: And, you know, we need to home in on how powerful and useful AI is. Nearly everyone seems confident that there’s going to be really important new use cases and very powerful benefits. But we also need to focus on what it takes to get those results, and I think some people may have skipped over that part.

Frey: Yes, absolutely. A lot of businesses are still trying to figure out the best uses of AI, and the types of solutions within their infrastructure that either add business value, or speed up their processes, or that save some money.

Gardner: And this explosive growth isn’t replacing a traditional IT. We still need to have the data centers that we’re running now performing what they’re performing. This is not a rip and replace by any stretch. This is an add-on and perhaps even a different type of infrastructure requirement given the high energy density, total power, and resulting heat requirements.

We're already seeing evidence of jurisdictions looking at the increasing power and water demand ... so they can understand the implications on utilities and infrastructure of these new AI workloads.

Frey: Absolutely. In fact, we constantly have customers coming to us asking both how does this supplement the existing technology workloads that they are already running, and what do they need to change in terms of the infrastructure to run these new workloads in the future?

Gardner: John, we’re seeing different countries approach these questions in different ways. We do not have a clean room approach to deploying AI. We have it going into the existing public infrastructure that serves cities, countries, and rural localities.

And so, how important is it to consider the impact -- not just from an AI capabilities requirement -- but from a societal and country-by-country specific set of infrastructure requirements?

Frey: That’s a great question. We’re already seeing evidence of jurisdictions looking at the increasing power demand, and also water demand. Some are either slowing down the implementation or even pausing the implementation for a period of time so that they can truly understand the implications on the utilities and infrastructure that these new AI workloads are going to have.

Gardner: And, of course, the some countries and regulatory agencies are examining how sustainable our overall economy is, given the amount of carbon and record-breaking levels still being delivered into the atmosphere.

Rethink Sustainability

As a Productivity Catalyst

Frey: Absolutely, and that has been a constant focus. Certainly, technology like AI brings that front and center from both a power and water perspective, but also from a social good perspective.

If you think in the broadest use of the term sustainability, that’s what those jurisdictions are looking at. And so, we’re going to see new permitting processes, I predict. We’re also going to see more regulatory action.

Gardner: John, there’s been creep over the years as to what AI entails and includes -- from traditional analytics and data crunching, to machine learning (ML), and now the newer large language models and their ongoing inference demands. We’re also looking at tremendous amounts of data, and the requirement for more data, as another important element of the burgeoning demand for more resources.

How important is it for organizations to examine the massive data gathering, processing, and storing requirements -- in addition to the AI modeling aspects -- as they seek resources for sustainability.

Data efficiency for effectiveness

Frey: It’s vital. In fact, when we think about how HPE looks at sustainable IT broadly, data efficiency is the first place we suggest users think about improvement. From an AI perspective, it’s increasingly about minimizing the training sets of data used to train the models.

For example, if you’re using off-tlf data sets, like from crawls of the entire internet around the globe, and if your solutions are only going to operate in English, you can instantly discard the data that have been collected that aren’t in the English language. If, for example, you’re building a large language model, you don’t need the HTML and other programming code that a crawler probably grabbed as well.

Getting the data pull right in the first place, before you do the training, is a key part of sustainable AI, and then you can use only your customer’s specific data as you tune that model as well.

By starting first with data efficiency -- and getting that data population as concise as it can be from the early stages of the process -- then you’re driving efficiency all the way through.

Gardner: So being wise with your data choices is an important first step for any AI activity. Do you have any data points on how big of an impact data and associated infrastructure demands for AI can have?

Frey: Yes, for the latest large language models that many people are using or familiar with, such as GPT-4, there’s been research looking at the reported infrastructure stack that was needed to train that. They’ve estimated more than 50 gigawatt hours of energy were consumed during the training process. And that training process, by the way, was believed to be somewhere on the order of about 95 days.

Now to put that level of power in perspective, that is about the same power that 2,700 U.S. homes consume for a year using the US Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA’s) equivalency model. So, there’s a tremendous amount of energy that goes into the training process. And remember, that’s only in the first 95 days of training for that model. Then the model can be used for multiple years with people running inference problems against it.

In the same way, we can look at the water consumption involved. There are often millions of gallons of water used in the cooling during such a training run. Researchers also predicted that running a single 5- to 20-variable problem, or doing inference with 5- to 20-variables, results in a water consumption for each inference run of about 500 milliliters, or a 16-ounce bottle of water, as part of the needed cooling. If you have millions of users running millions of problems that each require an inference run, that’s a significant amount of water in a short period of time.

Gardner: These impacts then are on some of our most precious and valuable commodities: carbon, water, and electricity. How is the infrastructure needed to support these massive AI undertakings different from past data centers? Do such things as energy density per server rack or going to water instead of air cooling need to be re-examined in the new era of AI?

Get a handle on AI workloads

Frey: It’s a great question. Part of the challenge, and why it comes up so much, is as we think about these new AI workloads, the question becomes, “Can our existing infrastructure and existing data centers handle that?”

Several things that we think are pushing us to consider either new facilities or new co-location sites are such issues as rack density going up. Global surveys look at rack densities and the most commonly reported rack density today is about four to six kilowatts per rack. Yet we know with AI training systems, and even inference systems, that those rack densities may be up in the 20, 30, to all the way up to 50 kilowatts per rack.

Many existing IT facilities aren’t made to handle that power density at all. The other thing we know is many of the existing facilities continue to be air-cooled. They’re taking in outside air, cooling it down and then providing that to the IT equipment to remove the heat. We know that when you start getting above 20 kilowatts per rack or so, air cooling is less effective against some of those high-heat-producing workloads. You really may need to make a shift to direct liquid cooling.

And again, what we find is so many data centers that exist today, whether they’re privately owned or in a co-location space, don’t have the capability for the liquid cooling that’s required. So that’s going to be another needed change.

We have higher densities, higher heat generation, and so need more effective cooling. These are driving a need for our infrastructure to change in the future.

And then the third thing here is the workloads are running both the training and the inference and so often they have accelerators in them. We’re seeing the critical temperature that those accelerators -- along with the central processing units (CPUs) – run at have to be kept below certain thresholds to run most effectively, and that is actually dropping.

At the same time, we have higher densities, higher heat generation, and therefore, need for more effective cooling. The required critical temperature of the most critical devices is dropping. These three elements put together are really what’s driving a tremendous amount of the data that calls for our infrastructure to change in the future.

Gardner: And this is not going to just impact your typical global 2000 enterprise’s on-premises data centers. This is going to impact co-location providers, various IT service providers, and the entire ecosystem of IT infrastructure-as-a-service (IaaS) providers.

Frey: Yes, absolutely. I will say that many of these providers have already started the transition for their normal, non-AI workloads as server efficiency has dramatically improved, particularly in terms of performance per watt and as rack densities have grown.

One of the ways that co-location providers charge their customers is by space used, and another way is by power consumption. So, if you’re trying to do as much work as possible for the same watt of power -- and you’re trying to do it in the smallest footprint possible -- you naturally will raise rack densities.

So, this trend has already started, but AI accelerates the trend dramatically.

Gardner: It occurs to me, John, that for 30 or more years, there was a vast amount of wind in the sails of IT and its evolution in the form of Moore’s law. That benefit of the processor design improving its efficiency, capability, and to scale rapidly over time was often taken for granted in the economics of IT in general. And then, for the last 5 to 10 years, we’ve had advances in virtualization and soaring server utilization improvements. Then massive improvements in data storage capacities and management efficiencies were added.

But it now seems that even with all of that efficiency and improved IT capabilities, that we’re going in reverse. We face such high demands and higher costs because of AI workloads that the cost against value is rapidly rising and demands more of our most expensive and precious resources.

Do we kiss goodbye any notion of Moore’s law? How long can true escalating costs continue for these newer compute environments?

Time to move on from Moore’s law?

Frey: Those of us who are technologists, of course, we love to find technology solutions to challenges. And as we’ve pushed on energy efficiency and performance per watt, we have seen and predicted in many cases an end to Moore’s law.

But then we find new ways to develop higher functioning processors with even better performance. We haven’t hit thresholds there that have stopped us yet. And I think that’s going to continue, we will grow performance per watt. And that’s what all of the processor vendors are pushing for, on improving that performance per watt equation.

That trajectory is going to continue into the near future, at least. At the same time, though, when we think more broadly, we have to focus on energy efficiency, so we literally consume less power per device.

But as you look at human behavior over the past two decades, every time we’ve been able to save energy in one place, it doesn’t mean that overall demand drops. It means that people get another device that they can’t live without.

Empowering Sustainable IT

Through Data Efficiency

For example, we all now have cell phones in our pockets, which two decades ago we didn’t even know we needed. And now, we have tablets and laptop computers and the internet and all of the things that we have come to not be able to live without.

It’s gotten to the point that every time we drive these power efficiencies, there are new uses for technology -- many of which, by the way, decarbonize other processes. So, there’s a definite benefit there. But we always have to weigh that.

Is a technology solution always the right way to solve a challenge? And what are the societal and environmental impacts of that new technology solution so that we can factor and make the best decisions?

Gardner: In addition to this evolution of AI technology toward productivity and per watt efficiency, there are also market factors involved. If the total costs are too high, then the marketplace won’t sustain the AI solution on a cost-benefit basis. And so, as a business, if you’re able to reduce cost as the only way to make solutions viable, that’s going to be what the market demands, and what your competitors are going to force on you, too.

The second market forces pillar is the compliance and regulatory factor. In fact, in May of 2024, the European Union Energy Efficiency Directive kicks in. And so, there are powerful forces around total costs of AI supply and consumption that we don’t have much choice over, that are compelling facts of life.

Frey: Absolutely. In fact, one of the things we’re seeing in the market is a tremendous amount of money being spent to develop some AI technologies. That comes with really hard questions about what’s a proper return on investment (ROI) for that initial money spent to build and train the models. And then, can we further prove out the ROI over the long-term?

Our customers are now wisely asking those very questions. We’re also, from an HPE perspective, making sure that customers think about the ethical and societal consequences of these AI solutions. We don’t want customers bringing AI solutions to market and having an unintended consequence from a bias that’s discovered, or some other aspect around privacy and cybersecurity that they had not considered when they built the solution.

And, to your point, there is also increasing interest in how to contend with regulatory constraints for AI solutions as well.

Gardner: So, one way or another, you’re going to be seeking a fit-for-purpose approach to AI implementations -- whether you want to or not. And so, you might as well start on that earlier than later.

Let’s move now toward ways that we can accomplish what we’ve been describing in terms of keeping the AI services costs down, the energy demand down, and making sure that the business benefits outweigh the total and real costs.

What are some ways that HPE -- through your research, product development, and customer experiences -- is driving toward general business sustainability and transformation? How can HPE be leveraged to improve and reduce risk specifically around the AI transformation journey?

Five levers for moving sustainably

Frey: One of the things that we’ve learned in 22 years or so of working with customers specifically on sustainable technology broadly is we’ve discovered five levers. And we intentionally call them “levers” because we believe that all of them apply to every customer, whether they have their IT workloads in the public cloud, a hybrid or private cloud, a bare-metal environment, or whether they are on-premises, co-location, or even out on the edge.

We know that they can drive efficiencies if customers consider these levers. And those five are first data efficiency, which we’ve talked about a little bit already. From the AI context, it’s first about making sure that the data sets that you’re using are optimized before running the training.

When we process a bit of data in a training environment, for example, do we avoid processing it again if we can? And how do we make sure that any data that we’re going to train for, or derive from an inference, actually has a use? Does that data provide a business value?

From the AI context,data efficiency is about optimizing the data sets you're using to make sure it provides a business value. Making the right decisions on storage and data flows down through the other aspects of sustainability.

Next, if we’re going to collect data, how do we make sure that we make an intentional decision on the front end about how long we’re going to store that data, and how we’re going to store it? What types of storage? Is it something they will need instantaneously? And we can choose from high availability storage or go all the way down to tape storage if it’s more of an archival or regulatory requirement to keep that data for a long period of time. So, data efficiency is where we suggest we start, because making the right decisions there flows down through all of the other aspects.

The second lever is software efficiency and this, from a broader technology perspective, is focused on writing more efficient software applications. How do we reduce the carbon intensity of software applications? And how do we use software to drive efficiency?

From an AI perspective, this gets into model development. How do we develop more efficient models? How do we design these models, or leverage existing models, to be as efficient as possible and to use the least amount of compute capability, storage capability, and networking capability to operate most efficiently?

Software efficiency even includes things such as the efficiency of the coding. Can it be in a compiled language versus a non-compiled language, and so it takes less power and CPU capability to run that software as well? And HPE brings many tools to the market in that environment.

Next, how do we use software to drive efficiency? Some of the things we’re seeing lots of interest in with AI are things like predictive maintenance and digital twins, where we can actually use software tools to predict things like maintenance cycles or failures, even things like inferring operating and buying behaviors. We see these used in terms of the design of data centers. How do we shift workloads for most efficient and lowest carbon operation? All of those aspects are in software efficiency.

And then we move to the hardware stack and that means equipment efficiency. When you have a piece of technology equipment, can you have it do the most amount of work? We know from global industry surveys that technology equipment is often very underutilized. For a variety of reasons, there’s redundancy and resiliency built into the solutions.

But as we begin moving more into AI, we tend to look at hardware and software solutions that deliver high levels of availability across the equipment infrastructure. On one hand, by its very nature, AI is designed to run this equipment at higher levels of utilization. And there is huge demand, particularly in terms of training, on single large workloads that run across a variety of devices as well. But equipment efficiency is all about attaining the highest levels of utilization.

Then, we move to energy efficiency. And this is about how to do the most amount of work per input watt of power so that the devices are as high performing as possible. We tend to call that being energy effective. Can you do the most amount of work with the same input of energy?

And, from an AI perspective, it’s so critical because these systems consume so much power that often we’re able to easily demonstrate the benefits for an input watt of power or volume of water that we’re using from a cooling perspective.

And finally, resource efficiency, and that’s about how do we run technology solutions so that they need the least number of various resources. Those include auxiliary cooling or power conversions, or even the human resources that it takes to run these solutions.

So, from an AI context, again, we’ve talked about raising power densities and how we can shift directly from air to water. Cooling is going to be so critical. And it turns out that as you move to direct liquid cooling, that has a much lower power percentage compared to some of our air-cooled infrastructure. You can drop your power consumption dramatically by moving to direct liquid cooling.

How Digital Transformation Benefits

From Energy Efficiency

It's the same way from a staffing perspective. As you begin having analytics that allow you to monitor all these variables across your technology solutions -- which is so common in an AI solution – you need fewer staff to run those solutions. You also gain higher levels of employee satisfaction because they can see how the infrastructure is doing and a lot of the mundane tasks, such as constant tuning, are being made more efficient.

Gardner: Well, this drive for sustainability is clearly a non-trivial undertaking. Obviously, when planning out efficiencies across entire data centers, it continues over many years, even decades.

It occurs to me, John, that smaller companies that may want to do AI deployments themselves -- to customize their models and their data sets for particular uses – and so to develop proprietary and advantage-based operations, they are going to be challenged when it comes to achieving AI efficiently.

At the same time, the large hyperscalers, which are very good at building out efficient data center complexes around the globe, may not have the capability to build AI models at the granular level needed for the vertical-industry customization required of smaller companies.

So, it seems to me that an ecosystem approach is going to shake out where these efficiencies are going to need to manifest. But it’s not all going to happen at the company-by-company level. And it can’t necessarily happen at the cloud provider-by-cloud provider level either.

Do you have any sense of how we should expect an AI services ecosystem – one that reaches a balance between needed customization and needed efficiency at scale – will emerge that can take advantage of these essential efficiency levers you described?

An AI ecosystem evolves

Frey: Yes, exactly what you describe is what we see happening. We have some customers that want to make the investments in high-performance computing and in the development and training of their own AI solutions. But those customers are very few that want to make that type of investment.

Other customers want to access an AI capability and either have some of that expertise themselves or they want to leverage a vendor such as HPE’s expertise from a data science perspective, from a model development perspective, and from a data efficiency perspective. We certainly see a lot more customers that are interested in that.

And then there’s a level above that. Customers that want to take a pre-trained model and just tune it using their own specific data sets. And we think that segment of the population is even broader because so many highly valuable uses of AI still require training on task-specific or organization-specific data.

And finally, we see a large range of customers that want to take advantage of pre-trained, pre-tuned AI solutions that are applicable across an entire industry or segment of some kind. One of the things that HPE has found over the years as we’ve built all portions of that stack and then partnered with companies is that having that whole portfolio, and having the expertise across them, allows us to look both downstream and upstream to what the customer is looking at. It allows us to help them make the most efficient decisions because we look across the hardware, software, and that entire ecosystem of partners as well.

It does, in our mind, allow us to leverage decades worth of experience to help customers attain the most efficient and most effective solutions when they’re implementing AI.

Gardner: John, are there any leading use cases or examples that we can look to that illustrate how such efficiency makes an impactful difference?

Examples of increased AI productivity

Frey: Yes. I’ll give you just a couple of examples. Obviously, an early adopter of some types of AI systems have been in healthcare. A great example is x-rays and looking at x-rays. It turns out, with ML, you can actually do a pretty good job of having an ML system look at x-rays, do scanning, and make a decision. “Is that a fracture or not?” for example. And if it’s unsure, pass that to a radiologist who can take a deeper look. You can tune the system very, very well.

There’s a large population of x-ray imagery that creates some very clear examples of something that is a fracture or something that is not, for example. There have been lots of studies looking at how these systems perform against the single radiologist looking at these x-rays as well.

We want to train tools that can answer basic customer questions or allow the customer to interact from a voice perspective. In some cases we can give the right answer in both voice and typed speech.

Particularly, when a radiologist spends their day going from x-ray to x-ray to x-ray, there can be some fatigue associated with that, so their diagnostic capabilities get better when the system does a first-level screen and then passes the more specific cases to the radiologist for a deeper analysis. If there is something that’s not really clear one way or the other, it lets the radiologist spend more time on it. So, that’s a great one.

We’re seeing a lot of interest in manufacturing processes as well. How do we look at something using video and video analytics to examine parts or final assemblies coming off of an assembly line and say, “Does this appear the way it’s supposed to from a quality perspective?” “Are there any additional components or are there any components missing,” for example.

It turns out those use cases actually do a really good job from a power performance perspective and from a ROI perspective. If you dive deeper, into natural language processing (NLP), we want to train tools that can answer basic customer questions or allow the customer to interact from a voice perspective with a service tool that can provide low-level diagnostics for a customer or route, for example. In some cases, it can even give them the right answer in both voice and typed speech.

In fact, you’re now seeing some of those come out in very popular software applications that a variety of people around the world use. We’re seeing AI systems that predict the next couple words in a sentence, for example, or allow for a higher level of productivity. I think those again are still proving their case.

In some cases, users see them as a barrier, not as an assistant, but I think the time will come, as those start getting more and more accurate, when they’re going to be really useful tools.

Gardner: Well, it certainly seems that given the costs and the impacts on carbon load, on infrastructure, on the demand for skills to support it, that it’s incumbent on companies big and small to be quite choosy about which AI use cases and problems they seem to solve first. This just can’t be a solution in search of a problem. You need to have a very good problem that will deliver very good business results.

It seems to me that businesses should carefully evaluate where they devote resources and use these intelligence capabilities to the fullest effect and pick those highly productive use cases and tasks earlier rather than later.

Define a sustainable IT strategy

Frey: Yes, absolutely. Let’s not have a solution in search of a problem. Let’s find the best business challenges and opportunities to solve, and then look at what the right strategic approaches to solving them. What’s the ROI for each of those solutions? What are some of the unintended consequences, like a privacy issue or a bias issue, that you want to prevent? And then, how do we learn from others that have implemented those tools and partner with vendors that have a lot of historical competencies in those topics and have had many customers bring those solutions to market.

So, it’s really finding the best solution for the business challenge and being able to quantify that benefit. One of the things that we did really early on as we were developing our sustainable IT approach is to recognize that so many customers didn’t know how to get started.

We offered a free workbook for the customers called, Six Steps for Developing a Sustainable IT Strategy. Well, one of the things that it says -- and this is in the majority of AI conversations as well – is that the customer couldn’t measure the impact of what they had today because they didn’t have a baseline. So, they implemented a technology solution and then said, “That must be much better because we’re using technology.” But without measuring the baseline, they weren’t able to quantify the financial, environmental, and carbon implications of the new solution.

We help customers along this journey by helping them think about this strategically, to get all the appropriate organizations within their company that need to be part of making a decision about these solutions together. For example, if you’re worried about cybersecurity implications, make sure the cybersecurity team is part of this project team. If you’re worried about bias implications, make sure that your legal teams are involved and anyone else it’s looking at employee or customer privacy. If you’re thinking about solutions that are going to decarbonize or save power, for example, make sure you have your global workplace teams involved and help quantify that, and your sustainability teams if you’re going to talk about carbon mitigation as part of all of this.

It’s about having the right organizations involved, looking at all the issues that can help make the decisions, and examine if the solution really is sustainable. Does it have both a financial and an environmental ROI that makes sense?

Gardner: It sure seems that emphasizing AI sustainability should be coming from the very top of the organization, any organization, and in very loud and impressive terms. Because as AI becomes a core competency -- whether you source it or do it in-house -- it is going to be an essential business differentiator. If you’re going to do AI successfully, you’re going to need to do it sustainably. And so, AI sustainability seems to be a pillar of getting to an AI outcome that works long-term for the organization.

As we move to the end of our very interesting discussion, John, what are some resources that people can go to? How can they start to consider what they’ve been doing around sustainability and extending that into AI, or examine what they’re doing with AI and make sure that it conforms to the concepts around sustainability and the all-important objectives of efficiency?

Frey: The first one, which we’ve already talked about, is make sure you have a sustainable IT strategy. It’s part of your overarching technology strategy. And now that it includes AI, it really gets accelerated by AI workloads.

Part of that strategy is getting stakeholders together so that folks can help look for the blind spots and help quantify the implications and the opportunities. And then, look across the entire environment -- from public cloud to edge, hybrid cloud, and private cloud in the middle -- and look to those five levers of efficiency that we talked about. In particular, emphasize data efficiency and software efficiency from an AI perspective.

And then, look at it all across the lifecycle, from the design of those products to the return and the end-of-life processes. Because when we think about IT lifecycles, we need to consider all of the aspects in the middle.

Six Steps for Developing

A Sustainable IT Strategy

That drives such things as how do you procure the most efficient hardware in the first place and provide the most efficient solutions? How do you think about tech refresh cycles and why are tech refresh cycles different for compute, storage, networking, and with AI? How do all those pieces interconnect to impact tech refresh cycles?

And from an HPE perspective, one of the things that we’ve done is published a whole series of resources for customers. We mentioned the Six Steps for Developing a Sustainable IT Strategy workbook. But we also have specific white papers as well on software efficiency, data efficiency, energy efficiency, equipment efficiency, and resource efficiency.

We make those freely available on HPE’s website. So, use the resources that exist, partner with vendors that have core capability and core expertise across all of these areas of efficiency, and spend a fair amount of time in the development process trying to ensure that that ROI both financially and from a sustainability perspective are as positive as possible when implementing these solutions.

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